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However, they ARE allowing us to charge people from outside the
university, which leads to the interesting situation that as it now
stands it is better for us to serve people from outside of the
university and say no to those within it. This, to me, just doesn't
make sense.
I think one problem is that the administration doesn't want to do
anything which they don't already have some type of precedent for.
That is why I need some examples of similar groups at other European
universities-and especially German ones- to show them that there are
(hopefully) others already around. However, maybe this whole concept
of core facility is more of an American one, which I had just taken
for granted.
Marie Follo
Abt. Inn.Med. I
Universitaetsklinik Freiburg
Germany
e-mail: follo@mm11.ukl.uni-freiburg.de
---- -Weitergeleitete Nachricht folgt -----
Von: "Dr. Martin R. Hadam" <Hadam.Martin@MH-Hannover.de>
An: "Cytometry Mailing List" <cytometry@flowcyt.cyto.purdue.edu>,
"FOLLO@mm11.ukl.uni-freiburg.de" <FOLLO@mm11.ukl.uni-freiburg.de>
Absendedatum: Sun, 01 Jun 97 00:20:12 +0100
Antworten an: "Dr. Martin R. Hadam" <Hadam.Martin@MH-Hannover.de>
Prioritaet: Normal
Betreff: Re: Core Facilities
On Fri, 30 May 1997 11:27:25 +0100, FOLLO@mm11.ukl.uni-freiburg.de
wrote:
>I am in the process of getting a core facility up and running and
>have run into something of a brick wall, namely our administration.
>[...]
Don't concur with your last statement. There *is* a brick wall in
your case - but *not* with the administration. They are actually quite
flexible to deal with (maybe not at the lowly clerk level, though).
You may *easily* open an account with the university administration
and use this for anything [like paying salaries, charging users etc]
you like - provided you [or your department's head] serve as
underwriter as well. OK, this is one of the basics - this business is
*your* responsibility.
There is an obvious conflict with charging users outside the
university as there is no such thing as "overhead costs" in Germany.
Again, this problem has already been solved for many contract studies
in the medical field and the administration generally charges from
10-20% of the overall costs. This is negoatiable and such rates can be
applied to any of your outside users and simply added to the invoice.
With very few exceptions, there are no such charges invoiced to
academic customers.
So where's the problem? Maybe at attracting enough users to become
self-sufficient? Charging users at rates that actually *cover* the
cost?
What about the brick wall being in the heads of the departments'
heads? Those simply being *unwilling* to share resources? As long as
flow cytometers *do* serve as prestigious objects of academic
self-esteem, no German (but not necessarily restricted Germans only
<g>) [C4] professor will send samples to a core facility and even *pay*
for such service, if he can have *his* own machine somewhere down in
the lab and guide *his* visitors to *his* FACS lab. Cost is a miniscule
issue compared to prestige! I could name quite a few individuals who
approached me with something like "we have applied for our own flow
cytometer and we expect you to respond with 'we're fully booked' when
approached for comment" even if the opposite was true.
The rates you're going to charge are a problem on their own - because
none of your prospective users wants to realize *& pay* the actual
costs (even if they run their own machine and thus should have some
insight). Since it's easier to get your own flow cytometer from the DFG
than asking for project related money to outsource those duties, you
may experience a hard time. And no one at the DFG (which in fact
represents the creme-de-la-creme of our scientists) truly supports the
establishment of such core facilities. As a consequence, no money to
outsource flow duties is being applied for in most grants and hence not
available to pay for such service (only solution being to apply for
one's own machine <eg>).
To top that, I recall a representative from company "X" telling me
(when I was negotiating for someone else) "as a representative of X,
I'd love to sell you our machine - but as a taxpayer in this country,
knowing about the sad state of finances, I am appalled to learn that
your institution maintains two virtually unused sorters which could be
upgraded to the state of art at a fraction of the cost"
Bureaucracy ??? [I doubt it]
Martin R. Hadam
Kinderklinik - Medizinische Hochschule
D-30623 Hannover
Germany
Email: Hadam.Martin@MH-Hannover.de
Martin R. Hadam
Kinderklinik - Medizinische Hochschule
D-30623 Hannover
Germany
Email: Hadam.Martin@MH-Hannover.de
Martin R. Hadam
Kinderklinik - Medizinische Hochschule
D-30623 Hannover
Germany
Email: Hadam.Martin@MH-Hannover.de
Martin R. Hadam
Kinderklinik - Medizinische Hochschule
D-30623 Hannover
Germany
Email: Hadam.Martin@MH-Hannover.de
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CD-ROM Vol 3 was produced by Monica M. Shively and other staff at the
Purdue University Cytometry Laboratories and distributed free of charge
as an educational service to the cytometry community.
If you have any comments please direct them to
Dr. J. Paul Robinson, Professor & Director,
PUCL, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907.
Phone: (765)-494-0757;
FAX(765) 494-0517;
Web